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γ
γγγ really suks
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smithsgj -
Now that Taipei has officially adopted Hanyu Pinyin for certain purposes, is there any point at
all in retaining zhuyin fuhao? They're ugly, they're counter-intuitive, and they have no
application in the real world.
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Ian_Lee -
But bopomofo can yield more accurate pronounciation than hanyu pinyin does.
Quest -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
But bopomofo can yield more accurate pronounciation than hanyu pinyin does.
I would doubt that.
ala -
Actually, I find Zhuyin Fuhao much better than pinyin. If we associated each character to its
Zhuyin Fuhao instead of Hanyu Pinyin, my life would have been much easier and my image of Chinese
characters purer. It would be much easier to remember which character ends in -n and which with
-ng, likewise which starts with an sh- and which with s-. I do not have to know that there is no
jui nor is there a hue or gue.
Also, I don't have to associate incredibly ugly spellings like "ding", "dongfang", "zhongxiao lu",
"zhuangxiang", "zhongshan xi lu". "xianggang", "xiao", "xuan", "xiangxia", "zhongwu", "qigong",
"qiangtiao", "xiongmao", "wuxia", "gongheguo", "zhonghua", with the beautiful Chinese characters.
Seeing "gongheguo" for the characters used in "Republic" just does not do those characters
justice. You might say that if we used Zhuyin Fuhao, we also associate the zhuyin symbols with the
Chinese characters; but at least there aren't established sense of aesthetics pertaining to the
Zhuyin script like there are for the Latin script to which pinyin is based on. And yes, aesthetics
does exist, and since the majority of the world do not associate the Latin script with Hanyu
Pinyin, Hanyu Pinyin is going to look ugly (at best, strange) for most of the world. Everytime I
see a Chinese character, I also disturbingly see the ugly pinyin in my minds eye. It is like
low-quality graffiti on a national monument. At least Zhuyin Fuhao is derived from the characters
(although I agree, it could be modified to look better and be more writable); with Zhuyin, my
phonetic script doesn't have to compare with other languages that depend on the Latin script as
their sole script. This way the Chinese can create their own sense of aesthetics out of Zhuyin.
But pinyin? Most Chinese who have learned a European language will tell you Hanyu Pinyin is ugly.
The aesthetic values for the Latin script are already established, and Hanyu Pinyin using the
Latin script fails the pretty test. Worse, even after you know the pronounciation of the
character, you will always mentally see the ugly pinyin when you read the character.
And, Zhuyin is far more logical than Hanyu Pinyin. Using Zhuyin also avoids the pitfalls of
learning a European language when having Hanyu Pinyin as your first introduction to the Latin
script. That pinyin b-, d-, g- never sounds quite right to the European b-, d-, g- for a good
reason. It always amuses me when Mandarin announcers pronounce B-stocks as pinyin "bi gu"
voiceless (in Wade Giles: pi-ku).
markalexander100 -
Quote:
Originally Posted by ala
The aesthetic values for the Latin script are already established
What are they?
smithsgj -
Quote:
Originally Posted by ala
Actually, I find Zhuyin Fuhao much better than pinyin. If we associated each character to its
Zhuyin Fuhao instead of Hanyu Pinyin, my life would have been much easier and my image of Chinese
characters purer. It would be much easier to remember which character ends in -n and which with
-ng, likewise which starts with an sh- and which with s-. I do not have to know that there is no
jui nor is there a hue or gue.
Where is γ
γγγ used? Taiwan. Which Chinese speakers -- even with their best, most
"standard" pronunciation -- consistently get s/sh and -n/-ng "wrong"? The Taiwanese (I don't
really mean wrong, I mean Taiwan Guoyu doesn't really make these distinctions. Partly that may be
down to fangyan influence, but there are fangyan throughout China and I'm convinced γ
γγγ
is a factor).
As to jui, hue and gue: I'm not quite sure what you mean, or in what sense you would "expect"
these syllable combinations to exist. There are, equally, no γγ¨γ, γγ¨γγor γγ¨γ,
the phonotactic possibilities have to be learnt: so what? If you're suggesting that pinyin rui or
zhui would be better represented by jui, well, that's a suggested improvement (although not one I
would support), not a searing indictment of the whole system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ala
Also, I don't have to associate incredibly ugly spellings with the beautiful Chinese characters.
Subjectiveness run riot. Who on earth is to say what is an attractive spelling? To my mind,
Indonesian, Vietnamese and Basque don't look particularly pretty, and Finnish looks a mess. I like
the Pinyin 'r', and 'x' and 'q', and I don't like 'z' and 'zh'. But I can't really explain why, I
don't think it's very important, and anyway the question of what combinations of letters look nice
is hardly a sensible guiding principle in matters of phoneticization policy.
Oh, by the way:
γ
γγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγ
γ§γ¨γ©γγγγγγγ γ‘γ’γ£γ€γ₯γ¦
For anyone unfamiliar with a set of symbols that's really aesthetically motivated, not. Aren't
they lovely?
The 26 letters of the roman alphabet are arbitrary symbols. It is simply not possible to score the
aesthetics of letters, or of combinations of letters, by any rigorous, objective or scholarly
means. Is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ala
And, Zhuyin is far more logical than Hanyu Pinyin.
There are a number of systemic problems with zhuyin (I'll stop calling it "γ
γγγ" because
it's a hassle to type or copy and paste. It wasn't really designed for the computer age, you see).
How are you supposed to pronounce the symbol γ? 'ji'. What about γ followed by γ§? Also 'ji'.
Logic? γ followed by γ©? 'Ju'. What happened to the γ§ bit of γthere then?
If you know Pinyin, you know that tong and yong rhyme, right? Not in zhuyin. Tong is γγ¨γ₯ (in
Pinyin that would be t -- u -- eng). Yong is γ©γ₯ (= yu -- eng). Xiong is like this: γγ©γ₯,
or xi -- yu -- eng. Sorry, was that one syllable, or three?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ala
Using Zhuyin also avoids the pitfalls of learning a European language when having Hanyu Pinyin as
your first introduction to the Latin script. That pinyin b-, d-, g- never sounds quite right to
the European b-, d-, g- for a good reason.
The use of the roman alphabet is hardly confined to European languages. All sorts of languages
that use aspiration and voicing differently use the alphabet (not to mention clicks, bilabial
trills and other exotica). In English, /p/ and /k/ are often aspirated in non-final position. So
when I hear the unaspirated /p/ that they have in French (like in Paris (Paree), or the similar
/k/ (like in seconde), it makes me think more of /b/ and /g/ than /p/ and /k/. If French were
spelt in Pinyin, my French pronunciation might be more reliable!!
But that's just an English native speaker's stance. The great thing about Pinyin, unlike systems
like Yale where 'shi' is indeed 'shr', is that it's pretty much other-language neutral. It's not
specially designed for English speakers, say, or French (there *is* a French-speaker-specific
romanization scheme, I kid you not), and of course millions of
Chinese Schoolkids are using it
effectively every day.
Pinyin is also extremely parsimonious and efficient. There are 37 zhuyin symbols, and (obviously)
26 letters (are they all used... yes, they are aren't they? no.. not v.. tho that's sometimes used
for yu..)
Why, in zhuyin, do we need two types of /r/, one for ε
and one for everything else, when each of
the two contexts rules the other one out. Why do we need a special symbol γ (ai), when it's just
a diphthong made up of γ(a) and γ§(i)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ala
It always amuses me when Mandarin announcers pronounce B-stocks as pinyin "bi gu" voiceless (in
Wade Giles: pi-ku).
Nice one!
nnt -
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithsgj
To my mind, Indonesian, Vietnamese and Basque don't look particularly pretty, and Finnish looks a
mess.
Just to remind that Vietnamese can be calligraphied in Chinese-like characters too (chΖ°Μ NΓ΄m),
and the latest Unicode standard include several thousands of these (although few Vietnamese could
actually read them...)
smithsgj -
nnt: when i was in vietnam i noticed ppl reading chinese newspapers. were they viet newspapers, or
just foreign language ones for hua qiao?
the real problem with vietnamese is all those diacritics. are they really necessary, or can viet
be read satisfactorily without them, like french?
niubi -
then it would be like reading pinyin without designations of the tones
nnt -
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithsgj
nnt: when i was in vietnam i noticed ppl reading chinese newspapers. were they viet newspapers, or
just foreign language ones for hua qiao?
the real problem with vietnamese is all those diacritics. are they really necessary, or can viet
be read satisfactorily without them, like french?
These newspapers were certainly written in Chinese (either imported Chinese newspapers, or
Vietnamese publications for Chinese tourists/huaqiao) because the "chΖ°Μ NΓ΄m" is no longer used
except in calligraphy. Most Vietnamese people would confuse NΓ΄m characters with Chinese
characters!
Here is an example of 13th century "chΖ°Μ NΓ΄m" book with its transcription in current Vietnamese:
The diacritics are necessary for two reasons: there are 12 vowels and 6 tones, so without them it
would be like using Pinyin without tones to transcribe Cantonese!
Romanized transcription was invented in the 17th century by Jesuits (Alexandre de Rhodes) for
evangelization purposes, as a mean for them to study Vietnamese without all these unofficial
Chinese-like characters, and the romanization process has continued later.
It was first officially imposed by the French at the end of the 19th century and adopted by
Vietnamese revolutionaries as the quickest way to eradicate illiteracy and promote new ideas...
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