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ㄅㄆㄇㄈ really suks
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cometrue -
Let’s see what we can discover from your examples:
Quote:
ㄆ (p) ↠波 (po)
it SB 夕
Quote:
ㄠ(ie, ye) ↠也 (ye)
actually it's from 世
Quote:
Derived from characters by adding an extra mark:
ㄉ (d) ↠刀 (dao)
ㄌ (l) ↠力 (li)
yeah, you are right, but i m afraid english letters adding extra marks will become french, german
and lots of other language.
Quote:
ㄈ (f) ↠匚 (fang)
you mean C and 匚 are look alike?
Quote:
ㄘ (c) ↠七 (the ㄘ is an ancient version of 七 and pronounced in Mandarin as ci; it also
happens to look like hiragana ã¡ chi)
ã„“ (zhi) â†ã„“ (archaic), modern: 之 (zhi)
yes, but theㄘㄓ are 篆书, u mean we can always put è¡Œè‰éš¶ç¯† together?
Quote:
ㄨ (u) ↠五 (ㄨ is the old Chinese numeral for five).
ㄞ (ai) ↠ㄞ (archaic), modern: 亥 (hai)
ã„¢ (an) ↠ㄢ (archaic), modern: è¡ (han)
ㄟ (ei) ↠ㄟ (archaic, ei). Similar to hiragana/katakana 㸠(he/e)
it disappeared since it was not reasonable.
Quote:
Parts from characters, like in katakana
if somebody has only one leg, two fingers and one eye(on the leg) , wouldn’t u call him a freak
unless you to his face?
the hiragana and katakana do really suck, they destroyed hanzi's original beauty at all, as you
know, hanzi's beauty based on shape of square, the regulation is the more square, the more
beutiful, but the hiragana and katakana are really like bunch of freaks, i would say the reform is
failed and without logic... how come the è‰ä¹¦ and 楷书 live together?
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cavebear -
well, I do not know the beans about bopomofo.
I can't argue on the technical side of it.
but there may be a lot passion and pride associated with the system. And the cultural subtlety.
cometrue -
I don’t know any Japanese, but I know a little bit calligraphy of è‰ä¹¦, so let me guess where
are the fr**k from:
ã‚â†å®‰ ãˆâ†å…ƒ ãŠâ†æ–¼ ゃâ†ä¹Ÿ ã‚…â†åŠŸ ãâ†é¦– ã¨â†ä¸Š ã«â†ä» ã¬â†å¥´
ãâ†æ”¶oræ•° ã®â†å››orçš„
ãµâ†ä¸ ã¯â†å¾· ã‚â†å¥³ ã‚‚â†æ¯›or色 ã‚‹â†ç™¾or为
I m not sure if it's accurate, feel free to correct.
Yinyue Mike -
I thought I'd play devil's advocate and point out some flaws in both zhuyin and pinyin, in fact,
both are inconsistent in some ways and each has its own strong points and faults.
Hanyu Pinyin's Faults:
*It's based on the Russian system, so a lot of the strange letters are from cyrillic, such as X
for the "sh" sound, this equates to the cyrllic letter that looks like an X with a line through
(sorry, not technical, I don't know russian).
*It is TOO concise. Pinyin abbreviates a lot, too much! For instance u + ei = uei but is shortened
to ui, for instance hui. Just like i + ou = iou but is shortened to iu. Know wonder students
struggle with how to pronounce jiu, hui, and words like this. Also a hard one, when ü is after an
l or n is must be written to distinguish it from lu or nu, but because there is no u sound after y
or x, yü and xü are written yu xu, which leads to mispronunciation. Zhuyin uses separate symbols
for ü and u.
*You can't annotate pinyin very well over characters for learning purposes like zhuyin or furigana.
Zhuyin Fuhao's Faults:
*It is another step to learn for beginners in Chinese=a bigger learning curve.
*The point made earlier about u and o being confused a little in zhuyin is true, I agree. However,
the argument that ã„ is silly because it's said the same way a ã„一 is, in fact, very silly. It
really does just stand for the sound "j" but is read "ji" as a name only. The fact that "b" is
pronounced the same as "bee" when saying the letter on its own is not enlightening at all.
*It's not as well know outside of Taiwan. But it is fine for computer purposes, most people I have
met from Taiwan use it to type Chinese.
Anyway, hope that brings a little perspective to everything. Have fun!
Mike
cometrue -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinyue Mike
Hanyu Pinyin's Faults:
*It's based on the Russian system, so a lot of the strange letters are from cyrillic, such as X
for the "sh" sound, this equates to the cyrllic letter that looks like an X with a line through
(sorry, not technical, I don't know russian).
hey,hey,hey, the han yu pin yin maybe established with russian helps, but it doesnt mean they have
a russian pronunciation, actually the letter X in russian prononced "h" or "khah" the Ж=r or zheh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinyue Mike
*It is TOO concise. Pinyin abbreviates a lot, too much! For instance u + ei = uei but is shortened
to ui, for instance hui. Just like i + ou = iou but is shortened to iu. Know wonder students
struggle with how to pronounce jiu, hui, and words like this. Also a hard one, when ü is after an
l or n is must be written to distinguish it from lu or nu, but because there is no u sound after y
or x, yü and xü are written yu xu, which leads to mispronunciation. Zhuyin uses separate symbols
for ü and u.
ditto!
skylee -
...um ... but hanyu pinyin works, doesn't it? and it is widely accepted. and lots of people (like
me) do learn to speak Putonghua using it. I think these are what matters. (I am no linguist )
And what is the use of the bopomofo system being more accurate ... I think Taiwan people's
pronunciation is far from accurate (although this really depends on what the standard is).
smithsgj -
Yinyue Mike:
> It is TOO concise
No it's not. It's parsimonious. Since there's no "wee" sound in Mandarin, 'ui' in 'hui'
unambiguously represents the "way" sound. Mandarin doesn't have that many vowel sounds and i
really don't see why it's difficult. Writing it 'huei' or 'hwei' just introduces unnecessary
letters. You think 'ui' intuitively looks like "wee" because you're an English speaker: in Dutch,
'ui' sounds something like the "ou" in "out". It's what you're used to.
> However, the argument that ã„ is silly because it's said the same way a ã„一 is, in fact,
very silly.
Put like that it sounds silly. But consider how the Taiwanese learn the phonetic system and relate
it to syllable-characters. For 比, the kids have chant "ㄅ,ㄧ,比" (b, yi, bi) and that makes
sense. But "ã„,ㄧ,åŠ" (ji, yi, ji) is almost as ridiculous as "ã„’, ã„©, ã„¥, 雄" (xi, yu,
eng, xiong).
Is this strange chanting done in China too? And if so, what do they chant in the above cases?
Cometrue:
> you mean C and 匚 are look alike?
In my earlier post I meant that I thought 匚 was supposed to look like F (that's how it's
pronounced). If the character is "fang", then Ala's explanation makes sense.
Cavebear:
> but there may be a lot passion and pride associated with the system. And the cultural subtlety
It's a tool for teaching kids to learn to read and a computer input technique for heavens' sake
not some important cultural model that captures 五åƒå¹´çš„æ·å². I mean they're hardly going to
get all dewy-eyed and start singing the national anthem over a bunch of nasty little Japanesey
squiggles.
Skylee: exactly.
Quest -
Quote:
Is this strange chanting done in China too? And if so, what do they chant in the above cases?
Yes.
比: bo1 yi3 - bi3
åŠ: ji1 yi2 - ji2
雄: xi1 yi1 ong2 - xiong2
smithsgj -
OK. So in the case of åŠ: ji1 yi2 - ji2 they get round it by pretending that the second
"component" of the sound bears the tone? (Because in Taiwan the Chanting is on the first tone, ji1
yi1- ji2)
Quest -
That's how I was taught - ji1 yi2 ji2, I've heard ji1 yi1 ji2 too. I am not sure.
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