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γ
γγγ really suks
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ala -
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithsgj
Where is γ
γγγ used? Taiwan. Which Chinese speakers -- even with their best, most
"standard" pronunciation -- consistently get s/sh and -n/-ng "wrong"? The Taiwanese (I don't
really mean wrong, I mean Taiwan Guoyu doesn't really make these distinctions. Partly that may be
down to fangyan influence, but there are fangyan throughout China and I'm convinced γ
γγγ
is a factor).
It's mainly Fangyan influence. I along with a lot of Shanghainese, consistently get "zh" and "z",
"ch" and "c", "sh" and "s" confused when growing up. Nor could I ever decipher an -n from an -ng.
I mean, we were all taught that the "-ng" has a nasal quality, but was never explained what that
really was, and how it was different to -n (which we felt also had a nasal quality). Even hearing
the two side by side repeatedly made little progress. Having a spelling of s similar to sh only
makes it harder to mentally separate the two when memorizing. Also, we continuously asked the
question "does it end in n or ng?"when we looked for words in the dictionary. And it was easy to
forget.
Quote:
As to jui, hue and gue: I'm not quite sure what you mean, or in what sense you would "expect"
these syllable combinations to exist. There are, equally, no γγ¨γ, γγ¨γγor γγ¨γ,
the phonotactic possibilities have to be learnt: so what?
No, I meant instead that from orthography alone, it made no sense to allow "hui" but ban "jui".
Instead the jui is spelled jue in pinyin. Can you tell me how the final rhyme (-e) is different at
all between tui1 and xue1??? The real difference is in tu and xu, not in pinyin's -i and -e.
Clearly, zhuyin here is more accurate. In zhuyin, tui is [t][u][e] and xue is [x][yu][e]; the -u
in tu and xu are different vowels.
Quote:
There are a number of systemic problems with zhuyin (I'll stop calling it "γ
γγγ" because
it's a hassle to type or copy and paste. It wasn't really designed for the computer age, you see).
Zhuyin is just as easy for the computers as Japanese katakana/hiragana input. Each key is assigned
a zhuyin character designed for maximum typing efficiency. This efficiency adaptation doesn't
exist for pinyin, because the English keyboard is designed for English and not pinyin. Although
pinyin advantages include better mastery of the English keyboard; but this is secondary.
pinyin has far more systematic errors than zhuyin. What pinyin has succeeded in doing is making
you unaware of these systematic errors; you end up comparing every other system (zhuyin, yale, et
al) with pinyin and finding erroneous "illogic" in the more logical. Haha, I don't know.. maybe
that is a postive for pinyin.
Quote:
How are you supposed to pronounce the symbol γ? 'ji'. What about γ followed by γ§? Also 'ji'.
Logic? γ followed by γ©? 'Ju'. What happened to the γ§ bit of γthere then?
ju and tu are DIFFERENT phonetically. Hence it made perfect sense in zhuyin to have them with γ©
(yu) and γ¨ (u), respectively. Otherwise, seeing "ju" I might pronounce a sound similar to pinyin
zhu if I didn't know better. γ§γ© is unnecessary since γ© is yu and not pinyin -u (γ¨). γ§ in
zhuyin is i/yi which are phonetically equivalent in Mandarin.
Pinyin had many compromises in terms of rules, zhuyin was designed specifically for Mandarin. Only
problem I find in zhuyin is u+eng construct (not that pinyin -ong/-ung is logical either). They
should have just created a new symbol for -ong.
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Jive Turkey -
Yaaaawn. Another HYPY vs. zhuyinfuhao debate. I do wish the mainlanders would just hurry up and
liberate the Taiwanese from their zhuyinfuhao.
smithsgj -
> It's mainly Fangyan influence
well, since you've given up on the "aesthetics" of roman script, I'll let you have that.
> Can you tell me how the final rhyme (-e) is different at all between tui1 and xue1???
I would have thought that tui was a triphthong. Or a semivowel, not a real /u/, followed by a
diphthong. The zhuyin equivalents are γγ¨γ and γγ©γ, so the vowels are discriminated
there too. But yeah probably they often rhyme in fluent speech.
> Zhuyin is just as easy for the computers as Japanese katakana/hiragana input. Each key is
assigned a zhuyin character designed for maximum typing efficiency.
Taiwanese ppl use zhuyin to key characters (though they'd be a lot quicker if they learnt how to
use pinyin). Typing the zhuyin symbols themselves is a pain: they may be etched on to the keys,
but I still have to use the IME and select the symbol from amongst the Chinese characters with the
same sound, if there are any. Typing Pinyin just involves using the keyboard directly. From your
reply, it looks as if you too find it easier to type Pinyin than zhuyin.
οΌγju and tu are DIFFERENT phonetically. Hence it made perfect sense in zhuyin to have them
with γ© (yu) and γ¨ (u), respectively. Otherwise, seeing "ju" I might pronounce a sound similar
to pinyin zhu if I didn't know better. γ§γ© is unnecessary since γ© is yu and not pinyin -u
(γ¨). γ§ in zhuyin is i/yi which are phonetically equivalent in Mandarin.
Yes, but what is γ? Unpronounceable (sp?) that's what it is. Its standard label is the same as
the label plus something else.
One advantage of zhuyin is that, like hiragana, it can be conveniently written vertically next to
characters -- in children's/learners' texts, or next to a particularly difficult character.
Unfortunately, even this minor benefit is not available on a standard WP platform.
smithsgj -
Sorry JT the thread title was a little deceptive. You were lured in here in expectation of
something more meaty?
Seriously: if you know of links then please post them. The topic hasn't come up here before, as
far as I know. None of us wants to reinvent the wheel!
cometrue -
γ
γγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγγ
γ§γ¨γ©γγγγγγ γ‘γ’γ€γ₯γ¦
ugly freaks! especially these ones: γγγγ£ dont you think they are not writable?
it made me feeling that when i wrote them down there still something didnt finish, how sad it is.
by stroke order, we always write the left part first, how come the γ is the letter's first and
only stroke?
smithsgj -
There's no system to the graphs. Some of them are like bits of characters (they look like
radicals, in some cases: although note that γ , the second one, is two strokes not the expected
three). Some of them are apparently intended to call to mind letters of the roman alphabet
(γ
=b,γ=m,γ=f,γ=t,γ=ts (pinyin c),γ©=yu). Others look like such letters, but
misleadingly so (γ=x,γ=a,γ¨=u). The rest of them, as you say, are ugly freaks.
cometrue -
got it!
ala -
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithsgj
There's no system to the graphs. Some of them are like bits of characters (they look like
radicals, in some cases: although note that γ , the second one, is two strokes not the expected
three). Some of them are apparently intended to call to mind letters of the roman alphabet
(γ
=b,γ=m,γ=f,γ=t,γ=ts (pinyin c),γ©=yu). Others look like such letters, but
misleadingly so (γ=x,γ=a,γ¨=u). The rest of them, as you say, are ugly freaks.
FYI, many Chinese radicals are also standalone characters.
Parts from characters, like in katakana:
γ
(b) β ε
(bao)
γ (p) β ζ³’ (po)
γ (n) β δΉ (nai)
γ (s) β η§ (si)
γ (ie, ye) β δΉ (ye)
Derived from characters by adding an extra mark:
γ (d) β ε (dao)
γ (l) β ε (li)
Most nearly identical to the original characters (and their pronounciation elements):
γ§/δΈ (i) β δΈ (yi)
γ (a) β δΈ« (ya, a)
γ (f) β ε (fang)
γ (h) β ε (han) , simplified Chinese uses it as ε»
γ (z) β ε© (jie)
γ (zhi) βγ (archaic), modern: δΉ (zhi)
γ (shi) β ε°Έ (shi)
γ€ (ang) β ε°’ (wang)
γ© (ΓΌ) β ε΅ (yu)
γ‘ (ou) β ε (you)
γ (r) β γ (archaic), modern:ζ₯ (ri)
γ (x) β γ (archaic, ha), modern: δΈ (xia)
γ (m) β γ (archaic), modern: εͺ (mi)
γ (chi) β ε½³ (chi)
γ (k) β γ (archaic, ku?)
γ (q) β γ (archaic, qi?)
γ (j) β γ (archaic), modern: ε« (jiao)
γ (ai) β γ (archaic), modern: δΊ₯ (hai)
γ’ (an) β γ’ (archaic), modern: θ‘ (han)
γ¦ (er) β εΏ (archaic), modern: ε
(er), although now used in Simplified Chinese εΏ.
γ (ei) β γ (archaic, ei). Similar to hiragana/katakana γΈ (he/e)
γ (c) β δΈ (the γ is an ancient version of δΈ and pronounced in Mandarin as ci; it also
happens to look like hiragana γ‘ chi)
γ¨ (u) β δΊ (γ¨ is the old Chinese numeral for five).
The bulk of what you call "ugly freaks" for zhuyin are Chinese characters, though some rarely used
or archaic.
cavebear -
Personally I would like to see that Taiwanese keep their own BOPOMOFO system, although a lot
politics is unnecesarily attached to it.
skylee -
Personally I think the bopomofo system creates unnecessary obstacles for learners (you have to
first learn the symbols, which are as difficult as, if not harder than, the kanas to untrained
eyes). Hanyu Pinyin makes things much easier.
But I think Taiwan can retain the system if the people there want to (although this would put them
in a less advantageous position as the rest of the world is using pinyin). Just please standardise
the romanisation (I was lost in the centre of Taipei because of the confusing street names, well I
shouldn't have used an English map in the first place).
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